Lightning Question

[WillFlyToDisney]

Hi Captain! :wave:

I saw this video of a plane being struck by lightning on another site and wondered WHY this plane was allowed to takeoff when thunderstorm activity was this close to the airport.

http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/high-voltage/lightning-bolt-hitting-plane-taking-off-in-osaka-294967.php

Am I right that lightning doesn't hurt the plane at all? I have BEEN on a plane that was struck numerous times by lightning and it scared me to death - the noise is something you never forget. :mg:

Are microbursts the only part of storms that are really dangerous for airplanes - and are those only an issue closer to the ground?

Storms are one of my biggest fears when flying due to past experience. What can you tell me to put my mind at ease about flying in the area when thunderstorms are present?

Thanks!
Kelley

[Captain Hutch]

Hi Kelley,

You have some good questions. Our guidance for takeoff is that a thunderstorm be no closer off the departure end of the runway than 3 miles—really just enough room to turn after takeoff to avoid it. The reason to avoid it is because of the turbulence contained within the storm, not due to the possibility of a lightning strike. Then of course it is the captain’s option whether he wants to wait if he thinks there might be a possible conflict. Personally I have not been in an airplane that has been struck by lightning, although some of my fellow pilots and flight attendants have. I have not heard of the noise that you describe, but I imagine that that could be pretty frightening. The pilots I know that got struck would say that “it got their attention”, but don’t consider it a serious threat to the safety of the aircraft. I think that that is the bottom line, that safety not be comprised. Most pilots I know I don’t think records are kept on lightning strikes, but I believe them to be relatively infrequent.
If anyone in the industry, pilots, aircraft manufacturers, or whoever, thought there was a possibility of danger, the distance margins around thunderstorms would be increased significantly. And in all my years of flying I have never heard lightning strikes considered a threat, so I believe I would rest easy.
Microbursts are a special phenomenon all their own and are not associated with all thunderstorms. They are definitely a danger at low altitudes, and pilots and controllers are definitely aware if there is the possibility of one near the airport.
Hope this helps! :tiphat:
Captain Hutch

[WillFlyToDisney]

Thanks, Captain!

How can you tell if a storm has the potential to produce a microburst?

Also - my hubby (active duty Army) just noticed that the star and stripes on your avatar looked like Navy Captain rank. Is that the branch of service you were in? (Thanks for serving, by the way!).

[Captain Hutch]

I know that there has been quite a bit of research on microbursts in the last few years. I am not sure about how to figure out what the potential for a microburst is, but I know that the ground-based doppler radar can detect an actual microburst if the airport is so equipped, and thus give a verbal warning to aircraft in the airport traffic area as to the position of the microburst relative to the runway. I do not know right off hand which airports are equipped and which are not, but I don't think the list is too extensive at this time.

As to the avatar, Passenger Mark, the chief of this website, picked that out for me. It certainly does look pretty high falutin', though I am not really sure what the rank is since i served in the Air Force and Maryland Air National Guard. Your husband is probably correct. :lol:

Hutch

[Barb-SAN]

I know that there has been quite a bit of research on microbursts in the last few years. I am not sure about how to figure out what the potential for a microburst is, but I know that the ground-based doppler radar can detect an actual microburst if the airport is so equipped, and thus give a verbal warning to aircraft in the airport traffic area as to the position of the microburst relative to the runway. I do not know right off hand which airports are equipped and which are not, but I don't think the list is too extensive at this time.


Hutch



You have to love Google, which, when queried about which airports have dopplar radar, came up with this link: http://www.ll.mit.edu/AviationWeather/TDWR-flyer.html


The list is several years old, however, so perhaps someone will find a more recent list. In any case, there are 44 airports...presumably the ones with weather the most likely to cause problems with microbursts. I see San Diego is not one of those airports....:sunshine::sunshine:

Can you detect windshear or microbursts on the radar in your plane?

[scottr0829]

In CT this year, we have had a couple tornadoes and microbursts, which usually never happen. I remember after one set of storms, the meteorologists explained the radar echos on the news one night and they were saying a very common area for microbursts and tornadoes is in front of a bow echo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bow_echo) - which was being displayed at the time of the storms. Are pilots and controllers trained to look out and avoid these because of the strong potential of danger ahead of them?

[Captain Hutch]

Hey thanks Barb-SAN for providing that link to the airports that have doppler radar. Sorry SD doesn't have one. and yes the aircraft are equipped with windshear warning technology, though it isn't connected to our radar.

In my opinion the microburst/downburst is one of the most hazardous weather phenomenon affecting a takeoff or landing. Fortunately (due to some accidents a few years back) the technology and training for pilots and controllers has been pretty good these last few years. As Scott brought up, the bow tie radar return is an indicator for a possible microburst. I enjoy analyzing the radar returns and so I feel confident about what the radar is telling me. If a pilot has any doubt prior to takeoff, he will request some time on the runway in position for takeoff so he can analyze the radar return directly off the end of the runway. In addition, the tower provides wind readouts for different spots around the airport, so that if the wind velocity (direction and speed) at the departure end of the runway differs significantly from the runway midpoint, then the possibility of a windshear or microburst exists. If it is me then I ask to wait for takeoff until the report comes back favorably.

Which here I would like to mention another point: in a few cases I have received false aircraft warnings for a windshear while on the final approach. Since at the time I wasn't sure whether the warning was authentic or false, I executed a go-around to be on the safe side. In trying to analyze the problem after landing, I concluded that a possible cause was electrical interference possibly caused by cell phone/phones being on in the cabin (not my own, as someone suggested in another thread). So even though I had my own cell phone on to use as a camera at high altitude, I really would heed the flight attendants warning to turn all electrical equipment off. For now I will put off a discussion about extraneous electronic emissions, wiring bundles throughout the aircraft, and the vulnerability of computers to stray electromagnetic energy.

Hutch :tiphat:

[Barb-SAN]

Hey thanks Barb-SAN for providing that link to the airports that have doppler radar. Sorry SD doesn't have one.

Hutch :tiphat:

Could that be because we don't get much "weather" here either? It's been months since we've had any rain. I have seen low level windshear forecasts a couple times during Santa Ana wind conditions...but we don't get those that often. Would windshear associated with Santa Ana winds be less erratic than thunderstorm microbursts? Do you ever fly to San Diego or other airports on the So. Cal coast?

[WillFlyToDisney]

Hey, I want to hear about the possibility of electronic interference! Can we start a new thread about it?? :angel: I have cornered many an Airbus pilot in the airport to ask them a million questions about the "fly-by-wire" system to satisfy my curiousity and to squelch rumors I have heard over the years about the shortcomings of that system.

Air Force! My house in Charleston is located right in the flight path about 5 miles from CAFB and the windows would rattle each morning about 3am from the C-17s doing their "touch and goes". My buddy in the AF told me that was "the Sound of Freedom". :thumbsup:

[Captain Hutch]

Barb-SAN,

Yes I think the reason that you guys don't have doppler is that you don't get that much weather, though I am guessing. I am pretty much ignorant of the Santa Ana winds, so I would not be able to compare a microburst to low level windshear from those winds. However, a microburst is an especially dangerous version of windshear, though the strength and wind change are the key factors in either.

Groovy Chick,

hey that is a great idea to start a thread on electronic interference (actually the term would be EMI, or electromagnetic interference). I will try to start one in the next few days. Thanks for the thought! :happyguy:

Hutch

[Barb-SAN]

I am pretty much ignorant of the Santa Ana winds, so I would not be able to compare a microburst to low level windshear from those winds. However, a microburst is an especially dangerous version of windshear, though the strength and wind change are the key factors in either.



Hutch


I wasn't that aware of Santa Ana winds until I moved to San Diego. Here's a link on Wikipedia that explains more about what they are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_wind


"Santa Ana winds may get their name from the Santa Ana Mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_Mountains) in Orange County, the Santa Ana River (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_River) or Santa Ana Canyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Ana_Canyon), along which the winds are particularly strong. There are also claims that the original form is Santana winds, from the Spanish vientos de Sanatanas ("winds of Satan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)", Sanatanas being a rarer form of Satanás), and that this in turn is a translation of a native name in some unspecified language."

I've found that the Santa Ana condition affects my mood a bit...get a little "edgier". The humidity also drops...leading to dry itchy skin, and sometimes allergies flare up. The air tends to be very clear if there are no fires...great time for aerial photos.

Here's another link to an article on USA Today discussing Santa Ana winds and fires. http://www.usatoday.com/weather/wsanta.htm . It's probably the fire potential that makes me a bit more nervous when we have those winds, especially if they get up in the 35-40 MPH range.

The couple windshear warnings I've seen have shown a low-level onshore flow (from the West), with a switch to winds from the East at around 1,500-3,000 ft.

[tusphotog]

Could that be because we don't get much "weather" here either? It's been months since we've had any rain. I have seen low level windshear forecasts a couple times during Santa Ana wind conditions...[/LEFT]

Weather in SAN? It's 68 degrees all year, with a few days in the mid 70s. A weatherman friend of mine at a local TV station here said SAN is the "easiest place to forecast for....sunny and 70 degrees all year." :tongue: Do you live up in the canyons or down in the city? And don't complain about low humidity. Come here in June or December when our RH is between 5 and 10 percent.

Seriously though, you won't get microbusts with the Santa Ana's, unless there are tstms that accompany them. You'll see LLWS warnings triggered when pilots report gains and drop offs in airspeed, which normally comes from winds not blowing at a constant velocity, or shifting direction, if I understand it correctly.

Microbursts are very dangerous, not just in planes, but on the ground as well. The other night I was out shooting lightning, and got trapped in one. The wind was moving my car around pretty good. A few weeks ago, a microburst rolled over part of TUS and took out 158 trees on a golf course. All the while I was watching a 737 try and shoot an approach to TUS. He went off and did doughnuts in the sky for a while before coming back and trying it again.