fatigue issue

[WORCESTERIAN]

I read up as much as I can, I watch the fear of flying videos, I go to airports. All as part of my programme to muster up the ability to board and aircrtaft and then this http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article....&in_page_id=34 (http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=54573&in_page_id=34)

It was a major national news item on TV and radio yesterday. One case involved a near stall at Birmingham airport (UK) The tired pilot engaged the flaps instead of the landing gear, very shortly after take off. Apparently, the plane began to lose height and only a warning stimulated the pilot to remedy the situation. At 700 feet. I walk on the Malverns quite often and 700 feet isnt very high. Not very many seconds from the ground.

It feels even more uneasy that it happened at the local airport from which I am working on the confidence to fly. Yes, the situation was recovered but a pretty hair raising story


Thats very worrying, that many pilots and a representative body are concerned about fatigue. I am not sure it is purely media sensationalisation (no doubt that comes into it to some extent)
http://www.takingflight.us/forums/images/buttons/edit.gif (http://www.takingflight.us/forums/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=71691)

See the video report at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm

[Barb-SAN]

WORCESTERIAN, I read the article you linked. Unfortunately the link to the video goes to a "page not found". I'm glad to see that you posted your question on Falcon's forum, to get the U.K. pilot opinion. I'd be interested to hear what Capt. Hutch has to say about this as well.

I'd guess there is truth to the fatigue issue, when you think about the job realities of irregular hours, jet lag, sleeping in noisy hotels, etc. There certainly comes a point when workers (in any profession) need to set limits on how many hours and what schedules they are willing to work.

This same issue comes up for medical interns and residents who work some very long, stressful hours too. It may be that by making this issue public, pilots and FA's will bring public pressure on management and government officials concerning their work rules.

It would be interesting to know if there was a "reason" that this was a national news story. Is there something political happening (like a law being considered that would change work rules, or a union contract being negotiated between the airlines and the pilots?). Or is it just a story that is guaranteed to grab attention and sell newspapers, and TV advertising, considering how many people already have anxieties about flying?

I've read articles about how much of the population in the U.S. is sleep deprived, thanks to so many distractions like the Internet and TV keeping us up late at night. So, that is something to keep in mind the next time you drive on the freeway too.

Once again...if you are trying to make a decision about what is the safest way to be transported between two places, it may be most helpful to look at the accident statistics of driving vs. flying. At least the pilots do have some rules in place for how much rest they need to have, there is a pilot and copilot, they can't drink alcohol 8 hrs. before flying, etc. There is much less supervision out there for drivers of automobiles.

[kari]

It would be interesting to know if there was a "reason" that this was a national news story. Is there something political happening (like a law being considered that would change work rules, or a union contract being negotiated between the airlines and the pilots?).

That's an interesting point. The only thing political that's happening is we're having a new prime minister (when is this happening? Is it tomorrow? Will anyone notice the difference? :lol: ) and I've always been inclined to think that the "news" (especially Auntie's news) is politically motivated indeed ... in the sense that if you're thinking about planes stalling and bird flu then you're not thinking about Iraq and Afghanistan.

The nearly stalling really sounds something of a non-event to me. I could be wrong.

[Rebecca]

Reading that article, I'm inclined to agree with CAA guy quoted in the last paragraph.

The fatigue issue was discussed on some threads here when Captain Ray was on board, I think. I remember feeling pretty comfortable with the procedures in place to allow certain time limits on flying time and to ensure rest time between flights.

In my anxiety-ridden moments, I try to remember that the aviation industry is intensely watched and issues like these are controlled. Also, if pilots were being pushed to extremes, I think they'd be leaving the profession in droves, which I don't think is happening.

Just my impressions.

[Barb-SAN]

Also, if pilots were being pushed to extremes, I think they'd be leaving the profession in droves, which I don't think is happening.


Good point. I think most people could say they feel "fatigue" sometimes when performing their jobs, and would like more vacation time. That doesn't mean they are fatigued beyond the point of being able to function safely. And, airline pilots have to pass frequent rigorous medical exams too. It looks like most of them keep themselves quite trim and fit (from casual observation at the airport...;).)

[WillFlyToDisney]

Good point. I think most people could say they feel "fatigue" sometimes when performing their jobs, and would like more vacation time. That doesn't mean they are fatigued beyond the point of being able to function safely. And, airline pilots have to pass frequent rigorous medical exams too. It looks like most of them keep themselves quite trim and fit (from casual observation at the airport...;).)

True. Fatigue can happen in any line of work but can be more alarming to think about when dealing with someone in charge of transporting passengers safely (pilots, bus drivers, train conductors, etc...) then by the fry cook at Burger King.

Commercial pilots work long and hard to get and keep their jobs with the airline. Not trying to make this a union issue but I know that the airline pilots union (ALPA) allows pilots quite a bit of leeway in being able to refuse to fly if they feel they are too fatigued to operate the airplane safely. I have personally spoken with pilots that work for non-union airlines and they have assured me that company policy at their airline allows them the same option. Safety is everyone's main concern!

[tabbygirl]

Apparently, the plane began to lose height and only a warning stimulated the pilot to remedy the situation.
I don't mean to sound flip, truly - but focus on the fact that there is a warning device in place, and it worked.

Freak things do happen - think of the messes that occur daily on the roads (lots of sleep-deprived truck drivers out there, by the way). But in commercial air travel there are so very many backups, redundancies, warnings...Something bad COULD happen but the odds are so very, very small that it will.

I've always been inclined to think that the "news" (especially Auntie's news) is politically motivated indeed ... in the sense that if you're thinking about planes stalling and bird flu then you're not thinking about Iraq and Afghanistan.

I agree - this seems to happen a lot in the US, too - distraction when something big is going on.

[WORCESTERIAN]

Thanks for the various replies and range of perspectives. I think what the pilots concerned have identified is perhaps the potential for a change in working patterns to create fatigue that has the potential (potential being a bit lower down the chain that "probable") to compromise safety. Now, that said, there are 2 people involved in flying the plane, and a whole lot of warning devices and mechanisms in place. The chances are that even with a fatigued pilot things are unlikely to go wrong, but it just might in a worse case scenario. Hopefully, the pilots union has now ensured that the industry and its regulators may focus on the fatigue issue. Presumably the way the industry evolves creates the potential for new problems and with it the need to modify and improve some procedures to meet the new and different demands, or at the very least, to ensure what already exists is adequate.

Its better that the issue is out in the open. There is never "too much" consideration that can be given to safety. I do not think the news story was spun by government and it is not politically motivated.

[Barb-SAN]

This article was in the news this evening. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19466988/

The fatigue issue comes up again here too. I fly NWA several times a year...and do feel a sense of solidarity with the pilots (after having so many helpful "meet the pilots" experiences!) ;) It must be very frustrating to see your pay slashed by 40%, when there is such a large CEO compensation.

Note that there is an FAA limit to the number of hours that the pilots are allowed to fly per month.

It would be interesting to hear from our commercial pilots...if they ever fly close to the maximum hours allowed, and if they feel that is too exhausting.

I wonder what, if anything, passengers can do to support the pilots and FA's?

In any case, the article gives the impression that there's a better chance than usual of having a NWA flight cancelled right now (well, a 10% cancellation rate over a 4-day period, so that's still a 90% probability that any given flight will NOT be cancelled.).

[Falcon]

The new hot button issue. Keeping costs down is pushing airlines into new areas. Airlines are aware of the problems of fatigue and are now have procedures in place to carefully monitor fatigue and minimise it.